We watched Jesus Camp today. It was a movie regarding the need for Christians to recapture America for Christianity. We paralleled this with Gregory Boyd's "Myth of a Christian Nation" (Chapter 6) and the thought that America never was a christian nation.
thoughts?
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I wish I could have made it... I haven't seen the film.
Two words: arrogance and ignorance. People arrogant enough to think they have all the answers and have everything figured out are not very good representatives for, well, anything. And anybody ignorant enough to think we are a "Christian nation" needs to realize that (thank God) history and experience speak something quite differently.
Prayer in school, fighting abortionists, and voting Republican does not equal faith in God. Of course, this leaves two questions: 1) how do we define having faith in God in a way that can open up dialogue with fundamentalist Christians, and 2)how do we move from a two-camp system to a version of faith where we are working together rather than against each other?
I agree with you matt. I see the arrogance in thinking that we are correct in our thinking. I was talking to kurt about it, and I've come to the conclusion that we are trying to win America for Christianity, but not God. We never were a christian nation, because this country was founded by such unethical means (Christopher Columbus and Christian assimalation anyone?).
I also heard some people talking about how this movie was just a liberal view of the pentacostal faith, but the main lady in the church has seen the movie and said that that was what she wanted people to see.
HOw do we dialogue with those who believe "craziness" though? Maybe we first have to open up to their ideas, not accepting them but seeing them as another view. We are so quick to see the agenda that often we don't try to see any truth in what they may be sharing.
It all goes back to Peterson's sermon that I continually bring up: Right thing done the wrong way.
When you are at a place in your faith when you are forced to choose a political view over one of faith. Faith needs to win every time. I feel it is impossible to have the discussion of politics and claim to defend or support a certain party. When we talk of war or the attack on a certain social group or individual, I find it impossible to see at what place in war or attack Jesus can be found. I think the issues are up for discussion, but as followers of Jesus we should claim the position of love, the party of LOVE. Love is counter cultural, it is counter political it is inclusive and unfortunately it has become counter Christian. Love is accepted by all and welcomed by all, but unfortunately not given by all. I personally see Christianity as another political party that I don't know if I am willing to claim as my own. When I see Christianity or Christ’s message depicted in a war or battle analogy and especially to kids I shiver with annoyance. The diversity that is found in Christianity is nearly as complex and rooted in humanistic needs for power, pride and control as politics is. The desire to be set apart or greater than all who don’t choose to follow Jesus is repulsing. I can’t seem to see in scripture where Jesus became greater or held his power over people to prove himself or condemn others, it seems to me he made himself nothing (Phil 2:7). The divisions that we see in politics and within our own separate divisions of faith communities are counter to love, counter to Jesus. I claim the party of LOVE. Jesus for President. Anyone in?
As we break down all the fluff and man made fill in our inherited Christendom experiences and begin to focus on the core basic messages of sacrifice, love, grace, acceptance, freedom, compassion and reconciliation etc.. We will begin to see what Jesus expressed and demonstrated. We will begin to grasp the true message. The Word became Flesh, there was a Body broken and Blood was poured out and there was Reconciliation. It is my hope that the message of love and reconciliation that was given to us will someday bind us all together in one simple faith It seems that the farther we try to expand and rethink and reread and interpret all of the details and convert them to black and white truths, we get sent down these strange bunny trails of division that become denominations or factions within our faith. This has become very real to me as we have been visiting many different churches etc.
Thanks for allowing me to share these thoughts that I have been holding in. I may have deviated from the topic but the movie and the book have inspired me towed this direction.
Here is a questions ? As Christ followers are there things that we should “fight” for in the political world as far as our rights as Christians? If yes, what does that look like?
Should we as Christ followers take a more active political role in the area of social justice? If not why? If yes, what would that look like?
Good questions Rob.
I don't know if we're ever supposed to "fight" for any right or value that is "Christian". Instead, I honestly believe we have to be a people who offer critique and affirmation from the margin.
When Christians talk from a position of power in the world, I think no matter what comes out of it, we've already lost. Take MLK for instance: he was sidelined from the get-go, but it was from there that he challenged existing power structures as well as affirmed things that were being done correctly by public officials as well as everyday Americans.
I think one of our biggest problems in the area of social justice is our inability to speak into areas of poverty, hurt, and marginalization because this is not where we are at! Instead of offering solidarity, we offer sympathy. Help rather than love.
So what's the answer? I have no idea. Or maybe I have some, but I'm afraid of going down those roads. Either way, I feel this scary feeling that, for my own life, whenever I've tried to get involved in social justice I've done it from the wrong place. Now I still want to do these things, and I'm glad there are many more Christians who feel the same, but I continue to be hesitant as I try to figure out how this really looks in my own life.
Really, I guess I'm trying to follow Jesus without taking up a cross, and it just isn't working very well.
I am totally tracking with you. I have no desire of fighting are standing up against non-Christian social groups or individuals. What I really want to fight against is the attitudes and ignorance of fundamentalist Christians. That seems to be a battle that would tie up the rest of my life. I seem to think a better use of time would be fighting for the rights of the hurting and oppressed people of our world.
Lately I have just been hungry for knowing more and discovering truths. Areas of social justice and ministry to the marginalized areas of our community and world. I have always been passionate about missions, but I have been feeling comfortable in my ignorance. This is a place where many Christians call home if I find out the truth I might have to get involved, ignorance is bliss. Where do I start; Aids, Poverty, Water, Homelessness, Orphans, Widows, Abused women and children, Outcast, Single moms, Refugees, Sub-Saharan Africa, 10-40 Window, Darfer, Rowanda, Asia, the list goes on and on. Somehow I want and need to find a place to make a difference. Short term missions are not the answer, sending money is good but I want more. Honestly these thoughts have been haunting me lately. I know this tension is a good thing and to ignore it would be wrong. I have some ideas that I am working on but still seem so far off the mark. I guess I'm trying to sort out the crosses and figure out which one I should pick up and run with.
Maybe activists fall into a trap of jumping too quickly into the next big thing. We look at Darfur and we want to help so much, but as Matt blogged on his sight earlier, what ever happened to Somolia? It's like we want to have our fingers in every pie available that we forget to stick with one.
This is why christian activism is so ADD (sorry rob), because we want to win the world for Christ that we forget that CHrist is in our own backyard, so to speak. I think that Global awareness is a wonderful thing, and thank GOd for the internet that we now are able to access this information, but maybe social justice begins at home. Maybe it begins by inviting your neighbor to coffee, not for conversion but for conversation. Maybe it starts with the "poor and marginalized" at the bottom of the hill that you live on. Maybe it begins with the prostitutes and meth addicts on railroad.
I don't know, I'm rambling.
Good point Ron.. It does start here. It is easy to get caught up in the romance of world missions. I think there is a balance. The majority of time we are home near our neighbors and in our towns and in our state and in our country. We are out in other countries maybe a few times in our lives. It’s the personal contact and the authentic relationships that really have lasting value. I guess I feel like we as the church are so focused on ourselves. We live in our white middle class purpose driven churches with everything we need and want and we are just a tithing sermon away from funding the next big thing. I would hope that we as the church would take extreme poverty, pandemics and genocide etc. seriously instead of taking the ignorance and ignore route. I think it is cool that CTK and other churches are taking on this big issue and running with an idea. Just the fact that they are trying to create awareness. It starts there and so what if it is a flop, but it might inspire someone to do something and the rest of us or whatever can just keep doing what we’re doing.
Just rambling with you Ron.
The tension comes in our desire to see God's kingdom come, but our inability to understand that outside of the way we understand politics and kingdoms. The worst thing that ever happened to Israel in the OT was getting a King, which God warned them about and used the prophets to point out how wrong and hurtful it was for them, yet we get so excited about a "christian" president, or when some Christian organization or production gets press. We are still seeking power, I don't know how else to bring in a kingdom. I know the kingdom of God is not about worldly power and wealth, but it is intrinsic in my worldview. Salt doesn't have to convince food it will preserve it, it just does its work by being there. Light doesn't have to convince life to grow and darkness to flee, it just exist in its fullness and blesses all that it can. There is so much good behind how passionate the Jesus camp people are, we share their vision in some way and there is common ground but what causes me great alarm is the exlusionist and politcal philosohpy they hold as to how that kingdom is meant to come. obviously they believe in the Holy Spirit (throwing down some core tongues) but somehow they feel they need to take up his role in convicting the world and setting it right, they have usurped the Spirit whereas we have just to often forgeten Him/Her
could we get some spell check up in this blog, cause this brother is struggling
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